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Author Topic: Simple circuit analysis: DOD FX25  (Read 4127 times)
expanoncolin
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« on: November 24, 2008, 01:58:21 PM »

Littlewings was asking in this thread how to increase the decay on the DOD FX25 envelope filter.  When studying the schematic, I realized it might be helpful for everyone if I sort of gave a basic breakdown of what to look for in a circuit like this, so that you can modify, improve, and copy to your heart's desire.  For those not familiar, the FX25 is your standard issue whaow whaow envelope filter.


It's actually a rather simple circuit, and surprisingly, not that different from something that your average DIYer would come up with.  Starting from the left, there's a basic Vbias generating circuit so that the pedal can use op amps.  Below that is the switching circuit (4007 and associated components), which we can for the large part ignore.  We can also ignore the two FETs - just pretend the J113 is a wire, and the J201 is an open circuit (not connection - that's how the circuit works when NOT bypassed, when the effect is engaged).  Directly after the input you have two op amp circuits - first a buffer, then the envelope follower.  The buffer doesn't do much sonically - it basically just makes the rest of the circuit "work".  The second op amp (lower one) is more interesting - it, and the diodes and capacitors after it, are the envelope follower circuitry.  The op amp is configured as a comparator - it's function is to basically output a pulse (or gate) whenever the signal is loud enough.  The diodes and capacitors generate an attack/release voltage after that - read up on this kind of circuit on the wiki page for envelope detectors.  This control voltage is sent to the two LM13700's.  They're configured essentially like my favorite filter circuit.  If you're not familiar with LM13700's, they're Operational Transconductance Amplifiers - basically just chips that make voltage control easy.  In this case, they're a VCLPF, with the input coming from the buffer, and the control coming from the envelope generator.  LM13700s take their control input at the little visa symbols (if you will), so if you were to cut the trace before it splits into the two 10k resistors R7 and R9, you could replace it with any control voltage source - a sequencer, LFO, manual sweep, etc.  Also, by following the other filter circuit from Tim E, you can vary the resonance.  After the LM13700's, the circuit is over.  Lots of pedals are similar in that they're fundamentally fairly simple, using common (and nice) circuits, and can lend themselves to a lot of modifications to extend their capabilities.

-Colin
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 09:44:43 PM by expanoncolin » Logged

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littlewing
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 05:03:20 PM »

nice, i'm glad i sparked the interest.

regarding resonance, i tried configuring the pedal for resonance control by desoldering C6 from ground and connecting it to a pot that was then connected to R3 and ground. the result wasn't very nice - except for when the pot (1M linear) was turned all the way to full resistance, i lost most of the filter response, with most of the clean signal coming through and a barely noticeable wah. perhaps my mistake was connecting to ground instead of Vbias?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by littlewing » Logged
expanoncolin
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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 10:48:29 PM »

Quote from: "littlewing"
nice, i'm glad i sparked the interest.

regarding resonance, i tried configuring the pedal for resonance control by desoldering C6 from ground and connecting it to a pot that was then connected to R3 and ground. the result wasn't very nice - except for when the pot (1M linear) was turned all the way to full resistance, i lost most of the filter response, with most of the clean signal coming through and a barely noticeable wah. perhaps my mistake was connecting to ground instead of Vbias?

Try to match the MS-20 schem exactly - disconnect C8, not C6 (that's the cap in the first stage of the filter), and instead of taking it to ground, wire it to one of the side lugs of a 100k pot - wire the other side lug to ground (or vbias - try ground first) then wire the center lug to pin 8 of the LM13700.

-Colin
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by expanoncolin » Logged

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littlewing
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2008, 08:44:09 PM »

i thought i did follow the MS-20 schematic.

which is the first stage of the fx25 - U2A or U2B?

on the MS-20 scheme it looks like the middle lug of the pot comes from the capacitor in the first stage - U1A, pin 5 right?

also, the FX25 schematic is incorrect in that pin "8" of U2B should actually be 9, because pin 8 is used in U2A.

p.s. i wanted to increase the decay on the pedal, not the delay ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by littlewing » Logged
expanoncolin
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« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 10:38:28 PM »

Quote from: "littlewing"
i thought i did follow the MS-20 schematic.

which is the first stage of the fx25 - U2A or U2B?

on the MS-20 scheme it looks like the middle lug of the pot comes from the capacitor in the first stage - U1A, pin 5 right?

also, the FX25 schematic is incorrect in that pin "8" of U2B should actually be 9, because pin 8 is used in U2A.

p.s. i wanted to increase the decay on the pedal, not the delay ;)

Ack, I misunderstood your post and misposted my response.  Indeed it is C6 you should be disconnecting, and you should indeed be connecting it to the center lug of the pot, with the side lugs to ground (or Vb, try that too) and the junction of R5 and R3.  But yes, U2 (I don't see a U2A) is the first filter stage and U2B is the second.  If we're on the same page now - did you try Vb in place of the ground?  Also - you connected to the junction and not to R3's connection to ground, right?  Try a 100k pot if you can, too.  At very high resonance, it may squeal at you.  At high ish resonance, it may distort, at medium it will probably sound as normal, and at low resonance the filter will be pretty weak.

-Colin

-Colin
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by expanoncolin » Logged

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littlewing
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 11:12:45 PM »

i'll give it another shot as soon as i can get some 100k pots

get this - my local radioshack stacked boxes of electronic toys up to the roof right in front of the component cabinets! i have practically no access to components unless i go in and move aside all the boxes  :frustrated:

i'm getting ready to put in a big parts order, so when i get the pot i'll post back with my results
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by littlewing » Logged
expanoncolin
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 12:50:42 AM »

Quote from: "littlewing"
i'll give it another shot as soon as i can get some 100k pots

get this - my local radioshack stacked boxes of electronic toys up to the roof right in front of the component cabinets! i have practically no access to components unless i go in and move aside all the boxes  Smiley

-Colin
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by expanoncolin » Logged

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oald
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2009, 05:57:32 PM »

I'd like an update for anyone who's done anything with the fx25 or any of the variants since this post. The pedal is stupidly good souding for the price it goes for, it just needs some more knobs. Anyhow I will definitely muck around with it sometime soon, Im going to start by adding potentiometers to the capacitors around the envelope generator and filter section. Hopefully I can first off figure out something about that resonance!
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marmora
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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2010, 07:35:47 PM »

Just an updated link to the MS-20 filter Colin mentioned:
http://folkurban.com/Site/9VpoweredMS20SallenKeyLPVCF-690.html

I would love to hook up a sequencer to it like Colin mentioned.  I'm assuming hooking it up to the MS-20 would replace the frequency pot.  Sounds like fun!
So many projects...
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