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Author Topic: Dead Bug: SS Guitar Amplifier  (Read 4340 times)
expanoncolin
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2011, 07:42:14 AM »

Interesting, that is a rather novel approach.  I imagine it will actually sound quite nice that the waveform is imperfect, and changes some with frequency.  Fed into an LM13700 I bet this will be very cool...

-Colin
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ve3wwg
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2011, 10:15:46 AM »

After I posted that, I began to wonder if I should change the feedback back to the more traditional approach. The one problem I discovered with the present approach is that the upper half of the wave form maxes out (sooner) and thus limits the amplitude. The traditional feedback has both halfs flattening slightly as they max out.

But I've decided to keep it this way. While the output is slightly asymmetric this way, it does reduce the distortion in the negative half of the wave- thus lowers distortion overall. However, it does cause the 2nd harmonic to increase, which is normal for asymmetric waves.

But those harmonics won't be heard. It is really only important that the slow modulating wave be smooth enough to smoothly change the volume. The fact that it is a little bit flattened on one end is probably something no-one would notice, unless you told them about it. Smiley  Even then you'd only have a chance to hear it near the 1Hz end of the spectrum.

If anyone here is using LTspice, then let me know if you want the *.asc file to play with. If so, I'll post it here.
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expanoncolin
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2011, 05:00:29 PM »

As long as the amplitude is a reasonable level, does it really matter whether it's larger or smaller?  In other words, since the LM13700 is current controlled, can't you tailor it to have the desired amplitude change regardless of a small control signal amplitude difference?

-Colin
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ve3wwg
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2011, 07:17:12 PM »

Absolutely. And I have 7V pp to work with, so with full depth control, I should be able to go from full on to nearly off.

I got some parts at noon today. I was unable to get a 3K dual pot. But I got a dual linear and a log 10k instead. So I'm going to have to put that in parallel with about a 4.7k resistor to achieve a similar result. I'm thinking the log pot will work best (I'll keep the other as backup).
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ve3wwg
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2011, 08:01:43 PM »

I got the op amp section of the oscillator wired up tonight. I decided to change back to the traditional feedback method to keep the feedback circuit short (my pot is 4 inches away from the opamp).

I used the log pot, but this was a mistake. Perhaps a reverse log or wiring the pot backwards would fix it. The entire adjustment is in the last 25%, so that was a disappointment. I will probably try reversing the leads to see if that works better.

The frequency range seems higher than planned. It goes down to about 1Hz, which is important. Based upon what I can see on the scope, it appears to go up to about 25Hz. So the range is better than expected. I'll have to retest the frequency range once the emitter follower stage is added.

There is some distortion in the negative going side of the wave. The output low pass filters (to be added) will clean that up some.
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ve3wwg
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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2011, 07:12:16 PM »

In the newsgroup sci.electronics.design, a fellow pointed me to this old PE construction article. What was interesting about it was that they used a transistor based phase shift oscillator in it. The articles are found here:

http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Apr1968/PE_Apr1968.htm
http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/May1968/PE_May1968.htm

The Fig 5 circuit is directly here:

http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Apr1968/PE_Apr_1968_pg46.jpg


The first thing to grab me was the small caps used and how tube-like the values seemed (in range). See C19, C20 and C21. However, I suspected that this may be running from a fairly high voltage. It turns out from looking at the May Part 2 article, that it is indeed running from nearly 60 volts, like the power stage does.

So this caused me to go back and take a new look at using a transistor only circuit. There is nothing wrong with using opamps but part of the purpose of this project is to learn how to engineer discrete designs.

Since I had a split supply for the TL072 opamp at +/-12 volts, I went back and designed for a 24 volt total supply. This extra voltage gives the stage more power to work with. This helped a lot but was not quite there yet. It worked well, but still lacked the range of adjustment I wanted. I had to have a minimum of 2Hz to 10Hz.

At that time I had C4=100uF as a bypass capacitor. But doing the math, I soon realized that even at 10Hz, the reactance was 159 ohms! To get higher gain I needed to reduce that. Notice in the magazine article how they used C18=200uF.  200uF reduces the 10Hz reactance down to 79 ohms! That bypass difference bosted gain enough to almost be good enough.

Then I studied the bias arrangement used throughout the project. Look at Q3 & Q4. This arrangement is used for all of the small signal circuits.  I would have used a normal voltage divider on the base of Q3, but this circuit gets its bias from R22, R15 and R14. So this got me to thinking, why do it this way? This requires extra parts and an additional bypass cap C12. 

So how does that work?  Maybe that will answer the "why".

The Q3 collector is direct coupled to Q4, so this means that the Q4 emitter will be about 0.6V less than its base, and hence the collector of Q3. Q4 is an emitter follower (buffer) so all of the current is shared between Q4 and emitter resistor R19. For best swing, the voltage across at the emitter of Q4 would be about half of +60 volts, so assume about 30. This voltage is then divided between R16 and R15. So the bias voltage is developed across R15. Note that C12 bypasses R15, making that point appear as a signal ground. 

Once you realize that the top of R15 is signal ground, then you realize that R14 establishes the input impedance. Bingo! There is very little current flowing into the base of Q3, hence the voltage across R15 appears also at the base of Q3 (it takes current in R14 to establish a voltage across it, but there is virtually none).

The most important design aspect of this bias configuration is that this gives you full control over the input impedance of that stage.

That was my big breakthrough. With the traditional voltage divider approach, it was difficult or unsafe to establish an input impedance of 100k that I was looking for.  To get a long RC time constant, you either need to increase R or C or both. I wanted to keep C size down to avoid big leaky caps. I also need non-polarized caps, so I need to see what range of values I can buy those in. They tend to be small caps.

In the phase shift part, I am still using C=4.7uF, which is still larger than I wanted. This requires R=100k to get it to work at 2Hz minimum. R3 and R4 are the ganged 100k pots. The magazine project managed it with one pot, but they are also operating at near 60 volts. I want to stay within the opamp rails for the non-power stages.  I may someday try an all discrete design at 60 volts but not right now.

It is worth mentioning that the C7 (in my circuit) does not need to be as large as the emitter bypass. I am using 20uF there. This causes some negative feedback at the lower frequencies, which seemed to help the sine wave slightly. The higher freqs seem to clean up automatically because they need more gain, which is fixed.

Like the earlier posted opamp version of the osc, I am using two LP filters on the output. This helps the 2Hz signal shape a lot. Note also that this oscillator uses the buffer output in the phase shift feedback circuit. In the LTspice simulations, this definitely helped the sine purity since there was never any lack of drive from the buffer Q2. Q1 is operating with low collector current and is the weaker member.

The only thing I might do next is to try to see if I can operate with higher R in the RC component, and use smaller C.  I plan to replace my opamp circuit that I currently have soldered in place. There is something wrong with my ganged pot (it clicks) among the other problems previously mentioned.

But dead bug style makes it easy to undo and redo. This is perfect for experimentation.  Hope you enjoyed reading this design discussion as much as I have had learning about it.

Attachments:

There is an output waveform for 2Hz shown. The 2nd is a FFT chart showing the low range center frequency is about 2Hz. The third is obviously the schematic.


* Vout_2N3904_Osc.png (12.56 KB, 710x389 - viewed 165 times.)

* Vout_2N3904_Osc_2Hz.png (8.09 KB, 590x325 - viewed 172 times.)

* 2N3904_Osc_Schematic.png (38.43 KB, 1079x733 - viewed 176 times.)
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expanoncolin
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2011, 02:07:31 PM »

Wow, pretty sweet!  That's an impressive frequency range.  Lots of good info in those old PE articles...

-Colin
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ve3wwg
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2011, 07:09:06 PM »

You bet. I always learn a lot from looking at other ppl's designs!

I was wrong about the primary purpose of that bias arrangement it seems. The way I used it is fine and for me it still is the primary purpose.  But in the PE construction article the main reason turns out to be (I have been informed) because the entire subcircuit is fed from unregulated +60 volts.

There are 3 RC supply line filters to decouple it from the power stage ripples, but the supply is indeed unregulated. I suspect that it was designed that way to reduce cost and complexity (in 1968 terms). Even now, you'd have to be careful using a regulator IC at that voltage level. So that bias arrangement allows auto adjusting of bias as the supply ripples. A voltage divider at the base would have caused amplified ripple in the output.

So much fun to be had but so little time!
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ve3wwg
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« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2011, 02:40:12 PM »

I've attached a modified version of the schematic. When I went to order some of the parts from mouser.com, some were unnecessarily pricey. Some components are not that critical, so by choosing modified values, I could often get a much better price on them. The modified circuit still checks out ok in LTspice.

You have to watch the choice of capacitors because they are operating in a circuit of 24 volts here. So I chose caps with 35V or higher for voltage rating. This alone sometimes created high prices for some capacitor values (like 200uF).

The single most expensive part (in the end) was the 4.7uF capacitor. I purchased Polyester Film 4.7uF, which happened to be rated for 250V. These cost $1.24 x three. But you don't want to use the leaky electrolytics for this part of the circuit, since those parts are meant for one polarity anyway.

C4 was changed to 220uF, reducing cost to $1.27.
C7 was changed to 22uF, reducing cost to 0.42 (for 10).
R1 was changed to 2.55k (from 2.5k) reducing cost to (10 for 0.95).
R7 was changed to 191k from 190k.

Mouser didn't have in stock, the 1/8W 2.5k in 1% resistors. Since the resistance is not that critical I was able to choose 2.55k to get close to what I wanted.

I ordered metal film resistors, all 1%.  This was probably overkill for an oscillator. But I've developed over time a preference for paying a little more to get things to come out right the first time. My hobby time is my scarcest resource these days.

Unless the resistor is pricey, I order 10 of each and stock the left over parts. I'll order 10 caps as well, if they are well under a dollar. My order for this project came to $16.21 US + shipping ($8).  If you only bought absolutely what was required, this circuit would cost $9.75 at mouser, before shipping. That excludes the price of 2 x 2N3904 transistors, which I already had in stock.

For convenience, I've listed below a lightly edited bill of materials, that LTspice produced.

Code:
--- Bill of Materials ---

Ref. Mfg. Part No. Description
C1 -- -- capacitor, 470nF
C2 -- -- capacitor, 470nF
C3 -- -- capacitor, 470nF
C4 -- -- capacitor, 220uF
C5 -- -- capacitor, 10uF
C6 -- -- capacitor, 10uF
C7 -- -- capacitor, 22uF
Q1 --  -- 2N3904 bipolar transistor
Q2 --  -- 2N3904 bipolar transistor
R1 -- -- resistor, 2.5K
R2 -- -- resistor, 10K
R3&R4 Pot Dual resistor, 100K
R5 -- -- resistor, 100K
R6 -- -- resistor, 36K
R7 -- -- resistor, 191K
R8 -- -- resistor, 7.5K
R9 -- -- resistor, 1.2K
R10 -- -- resistor, 1.2K
R11 -- -- resistor, 5K
R12 -- -- resistor, 5K


* Ordered_2N3904_Osc_Schematic.png (61.15 KB, 1280x992 - viewed 171 times.)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 02:43:25 PM by ve3wwg » Logged
ve3wwg
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« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2011, 09:40:59 PM »

Today I spent some time putting together the whole amplifier into one schematic/simulation. This was necessary to identify problems with signal levels etc. My parts will arrive soon for the phase shift oscillator (LFO). Then I'll have some more dead-bug construction pictures.

The schematic attached shows everything linked together so far. The only noteworthy changes were that a few components were changed to allow maximum depth of tremolo from the actual LFO (vs a simulated signal source). I also added an on/off tremolo switch. This just shorts out the LFO when it is off, allowing the oscillator to continue to run. This is important at the 2Hz end because it takes up to 8 seconds for the LFO to start up.

My only disappointment is the lop sided tremolo sine wave. I'll have to find a better way to make a sine in my next project. I'm sure this will serve the purpose but it is not as good as I'd like it to be. The sine does clean up when I set it to operate between 5-10 Hz. But it is the lower end where you'd notice it.

Once this much is assembled, the next section is some voltage amplification and a some tone controls. The last part will simply be a driving and class AB power stage.

* FET-Tone-Amp-22APR11.pdf (13.16 KB - downloaded 151 times.)

* Clean_Signal_Out_Full2Hz_Tremolo.png (44.97 KB, 1096x532 - viewed 166 times.)
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expanoncolin
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2011, 08:58:38 PM »

This is the LM13700-based trem, right?  I'm curious to see how the lopsided sine *sounds*, some of that nonlinearity could make for a nicer, more natural sounding trem.  Who knows.

-Colin
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ve3wwg
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« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2011, 05:48:45 AM »

Yes, that is the LM13700 tremolo, using the 2N3904 transistor phase shift osc. driving it.  The LM13700 is working well enough. I just need to perfect the osc. someday.
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ve3wwg
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« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2011, 06:04:02 AM »

Update: I got the phase shift osc built finally.  Unfortunately this highlights the disadvantages of trusting simulations (in LTspice) too much.  To my dismay, I found that it oscillates much too slow. With the knob turned to "fast" it oscillates about at about 1 Hz!  A little too slow for tremolo, indeed!

I tried to find various ways to patch it to go faster, but they all failed or took away the range control.  So, I need to go back and order more capacitors.  They need to be non-polarized caps, smaller than the 0.47uF caps that I used.  I'm thinking maybe 0.22uF or less might get the job done.  The good news is that they get cheaper as the value decreases. So I'll probably buy a small assortment.

The other thing of interest is that I discovered that feeding back from the emitter follower, leads to a lumpy wave form. It resembles more like a blocking oscillator when done this way. When I wired it to feedback from the osc transistor, the wave form was much better.  Perhaps even better than was simulated.

I should probably do the phase shift osc. theoretical calculation for the correct caps and ignore the frequency that LTspice reports. Unfortunately real life often throws in factors that aren't represented in a simulation. Simulations are still useful however, for checking your design.
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crochambeau
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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2011, 07:12:07 AM »

I'm thinking maybe 0.22uF or less might get the job done.

Since you're planning on buying an assortment, I'd get some in the 0.0047 to .01 range as well (just for giggles).

Might be kind of cool to have a push-pull pot in the speed position, to switch between two ranges and give you more coverage.
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ve3wwg
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« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2011, 06:03:17 AM »

I don't think there is much usefulness in tremolo above 15Hz. I built a tube amp which would go there and there just wasn't much fun above a certain point.

The push/pull switch is an idea that has merit in perhaps a synth module for "options" of one kind or another. In my current project, the pot is already soldered in. 

Thanks for the comments.
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