w3c
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

 
   Home   Help Search Blog Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Why Delay should be the only tap tempo effect  (Read 12968 times)
expanoncolin
Administrator
phpBB Member


View Profile WWW
« on: September 23, 2004, 06:01:30 PM »

I posted this on the GG forums and on the HC forums...  I still stand behind my belief, although I think that tap tempo is a nifty feature to have regardless of how practical it actually is.



I meant to post this a long time ago, but it came to me again while taking a shower, and I want to say my peice before I forget it.
 
 OK, first, let's consider tap tempo echo.  I'm sure many of us have come across it... the DL4 is probably the most commonly used of tap tempo  delays, it's also the one that I've used the most, so I'll use it as the example.  I believe it's safe to say that all tap tempo delays are digital, but I'm unsure-however I know that tap tempo can only really be done with digital components.  Anyways, let's start with a scenario.
 
 You're playing with a drummer who can keep a decent beat.  You want to add some echo to make your sound more "full".  But, you want longer repeats, and want them to be in time.  So you put your DL4 on analog echo mode, and tap into the drummers beat.  You set the repeats to about 3-you're not a spacerocker :P.  Your tapping skill is OK.  So, you tap in the beat of the drummer.  Although you're a bit off, the time is not noticeable at all because there's only 3 repeats.  Plus, the echo is not set by a constant rate, it echoes whenever you play (more on this later).  So, it all sounds dandy.
 
 Now, let's consider tap tempo modulation effects.  The  tap tempo sets the speed of the internal LFO, which is then constant no matter how you play the guitar.  I'll use the ModFX ampliton as my example, just because the ModFX have some pretty standard tap tempo features.  Back to the scenario.
 
 You're playing with a drummer who keeps the beat OK.  You want to add some light tremolo for your lead part, to make it all pretty sounding.  So, you turn on your very digital Ampliton to triangle wave form.  You want the tremolo to be in good beat with the drummer, just because you want it all to fit together.  So, you tap in the beat as best you can.  You're OK as a tap tempo-ist, and as you play, it sounds OK.  However, since you were 20ms off, every time the LFO completes a cycle you're another 20ms off.  The LFO is about 1 cycle per second.  After maybe 30 seconds or so, you're a very noticeable 600ms off beat, and the sound sort of gets off...
 
 See?  With delay, the repeats are only "spawned" when you play-so as long as you're playing in beat, your repeats will be reasonably in time.  If you had infinite repeats, they would get off time eventually, because you're not the greatest tap tempoist and your drummer isn't always on beat.  But, since you only have to worry about 3-10 repeats or so, the off-ness isn't noticeably, hardly at all.  But, with LFO based effects, at each waveform the off-beatness gets successively more and more off.  Eventually, you're totally off.  You and your drummer have to be perfectly in time for this to work, if you want your tremolo or phase or filter or whatever to be "in time".  So, let's go back to the scenario one more time, with a non-tap tempo tremolo effect.
 
 Your playing with a drummer who's not all to great at keeping time, but hey, you're desperate for a drummer, so you play with him.  You want to add some light tremolo to your effect to make your rythm parts sound a little more interesting.  So, you flip on your handy dandy analog VooDoo Labs tremolo to a reasonably high speed that has nothing to do with any part.  There's no reason this sounds bad, I mean, it's just tremolo.  You don't need to be in time.  It's just to add a light effect to your sound, not to be perfectly in time.  So, you go on and play with your OK drummer, happily ever after.
 
 See?  That works just fine.  If you consider the same scenario (with a non-tap tempo) delay, and you have shorter delay times, it'll be fine.  But personally, once delay times get longer, I find it very very useful and very together sounding when the tempo is on with your drummer/other band members/loops/etc.
 
 I hope this makes sense to you all.  I base my opinion on the fact that I now couldn't live without my DL4's tap tempo, and that I never use my ModFX philtre's tap tempo because it will eventually get off (sometimes sooner than others).
 
 -Colin
Logged

The best way to learn is to experiment.  Try it first, then learn from what went wrong.

http://www.eaced.com
http://www.experimentalistsanonymous.com
Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2004, 11:17:06 AM »

hmmmm, I use tap tempo on several effects - tremolo, delay, flanging, filters, etc.  I think the reason it works for me is that I don't play live, don't play with a drummer, and really I only need it to be in synch for a few minutes at best.
Logged
Allerian
phpBB Junior Member

View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2004, 11:18:08 AM »

Guess I oughta log in before I post! :)
Logged

expanoncolin
Administrator
phpBB Member


View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2004, 02:26:48 PM »

Quote from: "Anonymous"
hmmmm, I use tap tempo on several effects - tremolo, delay, flanging, filters, etc.  I think the reason it works for me is that I don't play live, don't play with a drummer, and really I only need it to be in synch for a few minutes at best.

Tap tempo is great when you just need to set your own tempo, or want to estimate something in...  Just isn't that great in a band when you're not the tempo-setter, that's all.  

-Colin
Logged

The best way to learn is to experiment.  Try it first, then learn from what went wrong.

http://www.eaced.com
http://www.experimentalistsanonymous.com
Allerian
phpBB Junior Member

View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2004, 03:52:14 PM »

Yeah I hear ya - I've been meaning to implement the midi clock in my studio so my delay pedal can get synched that way.
Logged

Anonymous
Guest
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2004, 09:45:20 PM »

I think it was put to good use on the tap tremelo myself.

Thats a really informative take on it though.
Logged
expanoncolin
Administrator
phpBB Member


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2004, 12:04:36 AM »

Quote from: "Allerian"
Yeah I hear ya - I've been meaning to implement the midi clock in my studio so my delay pedal can get synched that way.

Do you know of any midi-synched tap tempo trems/modulations?

-Colin
Logged

The best way to learn is to experiment.  Try it first, then learn from what went wrong.

http://www.eaced.com
http://www.experimentalistsanonymous.com
Allerian
phpBB Junior Member

View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2004, 04:53:27 AM »

Yup - the Adrenalinn ][.  I have had one for about 8 months now.  Not the cheapest pedal, but wow!

http://www.rogerlinndesign.com/
Logged

expanoncolin
Administrator
phpBB Member


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2004, 10:29:53 AM »

Quote from: "Allerian"
Yup - the Adrenalinn ][.  I have had one for about 8 months now.  Not the cheapest pedal, but wow!

http://www.rogerlinndesign.com/


I had the pleasure of trying one of thoste out when I was in california.  It's a great device...  the sort of thing I might own if I needed to do stuff like MIDI synch my LFOs ;)

How much did you get yours for?

-Colin
Logged

The best way to learn is to experiment.  Try it first, then learn from what went wrong.

http://www.eaced.com
http://www.experimentalistsanonymous.com
Allerian
phpBB Junior Member

View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2004, 10:45:33 AM »

It was in the $357-400 range.  The amp modeling is superb and I was completely sold on the way the delay is controlled.
Logged

Jelly
phpBB Junior Member
pyromaniac_jelly@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2005, 06:12:23 AM »

Hey guys...if you got on Guitargeek, you may see me on there...i saw some of your works on there Colin, and came to check out the site.

Anyway, yeah, i have a small bit of weirdness for this topic. I use my tremolo in one of my band's songs to set the tempo, it is so harsh and abrupt that the drummer uses is as a metronome to drum to...and therefore we never go out of time Tongue

Yeah, sorry for the utter irrelevance of that...and the difficultly of the last sentence!

Jelly
Logged
expanoncolin
Administrator
phpBB Member


View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2005, 09:45:06 AM »

Well, it makes sense if the drummer can sync himself to your tremolo.  It's just the other way around when it doesn't make sense!

-Colin
Logged

The best way to learn is to experiment.  Try it first, then learn from what went wrong.

http://www.eaced.com
http://www.experimentalistsanonymous.com
Jelly
phpBB Junior Member
pyromaniac_jelly@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2005, 06:14:13 AM »

Yeah, and i totaly agree when it is a subtle effect. The only solution i can see is if to hook your drummer up to a midi clock...and that may get a little messy. Or just (as mentioned above) use a midi-clocked drum machine :P
Logged
jame11
phpBB Junior Member

View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2013, 03:58:33 AM »

Well, it makes sense if the drummer can sync himself to your tremolo.  It's just the other way around when it doesn't make sense!
Logged

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.12 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC